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[racketwiz]

When fine-tuning a conventionally-strung racquet, it might help to know what main strings and cross strings contribute to the stringbed’s overall performance.

Main strings contribute durability and spin, while cross strings contribute power and comfort.

A note for those using Yonex racquets:
Please be aware that Yonex requires a two-piece stringjob.  In a two-piece stringjob, the mains and crosses are strung using two separate pieces of strings, as in a hybrid. This stringjob has four tie-off knots; e.g., one knot at the tip and three at the throat, or vice versa. Yonex also recommends that the crosses be strung at 5% less tension than the mains for optimum performance.  This stringing requirement and tension recommendation is due to its unique “isometric” head design.  Also, periodically check the shoulder areas of the frame (10 & 2 o’clock and 4 & 8 o’clock) for cracks. Bad stringjobs create unusual stress on these areas and I’ve seen quite a few stringers damage Yonex sticks due to carelessness and/or the lack of proper awareness regarding Yonex racquets. Not surprisingly, most of the damage occurred on one-piece stringjobs.

[altodds]

Thanks for the geat info Racketwiz

I was using Yonex from 96' to 2005'.
You're right, in my 10 yrs of experience using Yonex, those angles (10 & 2 o’clock and 4 & 8 o’clock), masyadong marupok. I can't remember kung ilan ang binalik ko sa Yonex ang mga nasira kong rackets, same with my students too.
But, now I'm with Wilson na. No problems with those angles.
Kaya lang one of my players still using and sponsored by Yonex, and gaving her a two piece string job, so far so good, wala pang problema with her racket.
My other players w/c including my son are all using Wilson 

[gerikoh]

hey what's the difference of 2 knots and 4 knots? i always string my racquet with 4 knots hybrid hehe wonder if the 2 knot would suit me better

[racketwiz]

hey what's the difference of 2 knots and 4 knots? i always string my racquet with 4 knots hybrid hehe wonder if the 2 knot would suit me better

You would always have 4 knots on a hybrid. One-piece stringjobs have 2 knots.

[gerikoh]

well, when i had my sensation duo hybrid, the stringer knotted it into two.

[rock_it_man]

   there would be 2 pcs. (already cut) of different type strings in the stringpack then, if there were only two knots for the duo hybrid stringjob, you've been had by the stringer...

['codeyoung']

  there would be 2 pcs. (already cut) of different type strings in the stringpack then, if there were only two knots for the duo hybrid stringjob, you've been had by the stringer...

bossing rock_it_man, i havent tried using hybrid strings yet, but i am thinking of trying it when i break my present strings, which sports shop could you recommend that do pretty good hybrid stringjobs?

thanks!

[rock_it_man]

bro kodyang, wouldn't want to be an armchair expert on strings, stringjobs & rackets.  better ask racketwiz (the resident PTO wizard) as to your racket specs (wt., swing wt., headsize, flex, etc.) and your constant hitting style (topspin, slice or flat) - to assess which type or combination of strings would suit your game.  currently am using the dunlop poly explosive, ga. 16, and am happy with the depth, pace & spin - mura na matibay pa - with my style of play anyway.  different strokes for different folks ... wika nga ni 'wiz.

ps - kakainggit kayo punta kayo westgrove, elections ng club namin dec. 9 and may dual meet at the same time. dumating na ba si peter showhead?

['codeyoung']

bro kodyang, wouldn't want to be an armchair expert on strings, stringjobs & rackets.  better ask racketwiz (the resident PTO wizard) as to your racket specs (wt., swing wt., headsize, flex, etc.) and your constant hitting style (topspin, slice or flat) - to assess which type or combination of strings would suit your game.  currently am using the dunlop poly explosive, ga. 16, and am happy with the depth, pace & spin - mura na matibay pa - with my style of play anyway.  different strokes for different folks ... wika nga ni 'wiz.

ps - kakainggit kayo punta kayo westgrove, elections ng club namin dec. 9 and may dual meet at the same time. dumating na ba si peter showhead?

yeah, i will address the question to sir racketwiz... any idea of a shop that do nice stringjobs (hybrid) here sa pinas?

Head Liquidmetal Prestige Racquet - MDPLUS
Head Liquidmetal Radical Racquet - MIDPLUS


ill try that dunlop on one of my stringjobs.

i think this week ang dating ni sir "peter showhead" .hehe

[rock_it_man]

dito kasi sa toby's & chris smfview, kilala namin mga stringers and they do decent stringjobs, binabantayan namin eh. kasi some stringers reduce tension mga 5-10%, especially the polys, kaya ibilin mo strictly kung ano tension ini-specify mo, not to deviate. 

[gerikoh]

  there would be 2 pcs. (already cut) of different type strings in the stringpack then, if there were only two knots for the duo hybrid stringjob, you've been had by the stringer...

what do you mean? you mean he switched the string and it wasn't hybrid at all? omg well, it was free anyway hehehe no wonder i keep wondering why the main and crosses were the same considering that it is a hybrid hehe

[racketwiz]

dito kasi sa toby's & chris smfview, kilala namin mga stringers and they do decent stringjobs, binabantayan namin eh. kasi some stringers reduce tension mga 5-10%, especially the polys, kaya ibilin mo strictly kung ano tension ini-specify mo, not to deviate. 

Generally speaking, a 5-10% tension reduction in polys is a manufacturers' recommendation to mitigate the string's inherent stiffness. However, I believe that this recommendation is geared more for players who are coming from regular synthetics and are either experimenting with or trying out polys. My experience has been that after a couple of poly stringjobs, some of my poly players tend to go back to their original tensions after realizing (actually, ignoring my advice hehehe) that polys are notorious for tension loss.

The temperature and humidity of Philippine weather doesn't help and may even exacerbate this tension loss issue. Hence I recommend sticking with your regular tension (as in the case of Rockit Man). I would also suggest that the crosses be strung 2-3 lb lower than the mains just to sort of even out the stringbed stiffness. It's just a minor tweak but try it at least once to see if it makes any difference at all.

[renald]

I dont agree with lowering the crosses tension. You should in fact increase the cross tension than the mains. This would magnify the performance of the cross. Lower the polys tension and increase the synthetics to produce a softer feel. Japan or taiwan polys looses tension faster compared to their european couterparts.

[racketwiz]

I dont agree with lowering the crosses tension. You should in fact increase the cross tension than the mains. This would magnify the performance of the cross. Lower the polys tension and increase the synthetics to produce a softer feel. Japan or taiwan polys looses tension faster compared to their european couterparts.

Your post apparently refers to a hybrid stringjob consisting of poly mains and synthetic crosses. One thing good about a hybrid or a 2-piece stringjob is that it gives a player the option to experiment with different string and tension combinations on the mains and crosses.  Should one in fact increase the tension of synthetic crosses in this hybrid setup? It’s certainly an option, but I don’t think one has to and I don’t think it’s necessary.

A softer feel is a result of a softer stringbed, and a softer stringbed is a function of the stringbed’s ability to deflect more. Cross strings are obviously shorter than mains, hence they would string up tighter than the mains at any given reference tension. So, in effect, the cross strings in large part controls the stringbed’s ability to deflect. This phenomenon is the basis of the Yonex recommendation of applying 5% less tension on the crosses in consideration of the relatively shorter-than-normal cross strings resulting from their “isometric” head shape design. In my suggestion to lower cross tension on a 2-piece all-poly stringjob, the goal is to increase stringbed deflection thus making the stringbed “softer”.

While lowering the tension of poly mains gives it the ability to deflect more, this deflection is nullified and even overcome by increasing the tension of synthetic crosses.  Considering the fact that synthetics become increasingly stiffer at tensions above 50 lb (hence, lesser ability to deflect), I would think that in this hybrid scenario, the feel would be firmer rather than softer.

I’ve seen hybrids with crosses strung at the same tension or lower than the mains. All of the hybrids I string and most, if not all hybrids on the pro tour are strung this way.  In cases where there is tension difference between the mains and crosses, I have yet to see a net tension difference of over 5 lb.  In the Racquet Stringers Symposium last year, I asked tour stringer Richard Parnell about this and basically his opinion was that a 2+ kg, or 4+ lb,   difference in main and cross tensions creates an uneven stringbed that results in an unpredictable stringbed response.  He added that regular joes might not feel this, but advanced players and pros do.

As far as Japan or Taiwan polys losing tension faster than their European counterparts, do you think this is due to lower quality materials and/or production?  This is interesting.

[ruud]

renald and racketwiz,

i have a problem with keeping the tension that i like with my racquet. i'm using hybrids.
i use babolat hurricane pro polys on mains and gamma synthetic 17 on crosses. my
tension is the same for both mains and crosses at 55. hitting with it after the string job
is perfect, works very well. but after 4 days of 2hours tennis/day, ... my balls are sailing
out. i even notice that the strings move a lot that i have to fix it more often.

its expensive to have it cut at this stage. well, its really not cheap to do this. do i have to
increase my tension and use it and wait till its stabilizes at a lower tension? do u have any
useful info on the babolat hurricane pro? do i have to use 16 gauge instead of 17s? what do
you recommend?

im using prince o3 tour mp. (i also have prince 03 speedport from the slp!, which i showboat
on the court. hehehe)

what do u think string masters? thank you in advance guys!!

[renald]

Hi ruud,
Your problem is your tension drops too fast. This is beacuse you really hit very hard. European strings like babolat, luxilon, technifiber make tour series poly which should not loosen as fast as ordinary poly. Now I suggest you get the thicker 16 than the 17. This would hold tension better.

Another factor that causes rapid drop in tension is your stringer. Uneven tension would cause the tension to drop faster.

Stringing at a higher tension will not solve your problem, you would adjust your stroke when you increase tension, the adjust again when it drops. What you need is consistent tension. Remember, if you string at a higher tension, the drop will also be faster. Its like carrying 1 and 2 kg. you will get tired faster if you carry 2 kg.

Try using Gamma advantage 15l instead of syn 17. its cheaper and holds tension better.

[renald]

Hi racketwiz,
I expected your answer that the shorter cross will be stiffer. Have you ever tried measuring the actual tension of the mains and the cross? Even if you tension both at 60 lbs, the mains will measure much higher than the cross. How would I explain this? Remember when you install the mains, the tension is 60 but as you tighten the cross, the mains tension will increase. This is because when you tighten the cross, the mains will be stretched. Straight then weave as you tighten the cross. Look at kevlar strings, when the cross is not tighten, its loose and tension will dramatically increase when you tighten the cross. Kevlar increase tension the most because it almost has no elasticity that is why it is recommended to lower 10%.

Now about tightening the cross more than the mains is done when you want cross string to be the dominant stringbed or feel. Remember hibrid strings gives you the average of both strings. Lowering the polys tension will not significantly affect stringbed stiffness since it is very stiff to start with. More elastic strings results in softer string bed. That is why we normally use multis for crosses. Polys normally results in higher stringbed stiffness.

[racketwiz]

renald and racketwiz,

i have a problem with keeping the tension that i like with my racquet. i'm using hybrids.
i use babolat hurricane pro polys on mains and gamma synthetic 17 on crosses. my
tension is the same for both mains and crosses at 55. hitting with it after the string job
is perfect, works very well. but after 4 days of 2hours tennis/day, ... my balls are sailing
out. i even notice that the strings move a lot that i have to fix it more often.

its expensive to have it cut at this stage. well, its really not cheap to do this. do i have to
increase my tension and use it and wait till its stabilizes at a lower tension? do u have any
useful info on the babolat hurricane pro? do i have to use 16 gauge instead of 17s? what do
you recommend?

im using prince o3 tour mp. (i also have prince 03 speedport from the slp!, which i showboat
on the court. hehehe)

what do u think string masters? thank you in advance guys!!

I agree with renald that rapid tension drop is the culprit. This is obviously not a normal incident. Balls are sailing long because the tension drop is causing the ball to stay a split second longer on the stringbed, where it subsequently rebounds at a higher angle.

I also agree that stringing at higher tension will result in a faster rate of tension loss. However, this is true only during stringing. After stringing, tension tends to stabilize and seek equilibrium over the entire stringbed area. Tension loss still occurs but it’s incrementally small. Regardless of what tension you’re using, I don’t think this is the problem.  Tension loss also occurs every time you hit a ball. Although the loss is greater in the first few hard hits, it subsequently becomes incrementally small.  Unless your last name is Blake, I don’t think that 8 hours of play after stringing will cause a significant drop in tension.

Whether this is the first time you’re having this issue or has been an ongoing problem for the past few stringjobs, renald might be right: your stringer might be the problem. Some areas of concern:
1. Is your stringer using a manual lockout or an electronic constant-pull machine? On the average, manual machines string up about 10% looser than electronic machines.  Using either one is okay as long as you remain consistent with that particular machine. When switching from manual to electronic or vice versa, remember to make the proper tension adjustments. Worst of all, if your stringer is using a dropweight machine (the one with big cylindrical weight attached to the end of a bar), tension is definitely inconsistent. Dropweight machines have no place in a professional or commercial establishment.
2. If your stringer uses a manual lockout machine, has it been properly calibrated? If it hasn’t been calibrated, the tension being applied on the string is definitely lower than the tension indicator setting. One thing about manual machines is that the tension spring requires periodic calibration.
3. Are the string clamps clean and do they apply enough clamping pressure on the strings? Poly has a smooth and slippery surface.  If the clamps are dirty and/or not applying sufficient clamping pressure, the poly strings will easily slip. String slippage = tension loss, definitely.
4. You have a racket with O-Ports. Is the stringer using the Prince “boomerang” stringing aid or if not available, is he locking the turntable at the proper position before pulling tension? If not, tension is definitely inconsistent. Some lazy stringers I know who doesn’t want to be bothered with boomerangs and locking turntables tend to cut corners when stringing O-Port rackets.

If your stringer and his machine checks out, I would have to go against renald’s opinion that increasing tension will not solve your problem.  Most hybrid users, including those in the pro tour, string their mains tighter than their crosses. They must have a good enough reason to do it. In your case, I’d say keep your crosses at 55 lb, but raise your mains to 58 lb.  It may or not solve your problem, but the worst that could happen is that the poly will lose tension faster than the crosses but at least you’ll be 3 lb ahead. I wouldn’t worry too much about stringbed stiffness.  The increase in stringbed stiffness imparted by a 3-lb rise in tension of only the mains is minimal at best. Besides, the O-Port design mitigates some of this. Furthermore, you’re already familiar with this hybrid setup and I would think that maybe you have developed a sense of what to expect from these strings, tension loss issues notwithstanding.

renald’s suggestion of switching to thicker strings makes sense. The 16g Hurricane is 19% better at holding tension than the 17g, and the Gamma Advantage is 16.5% better than the Synthetic 17g. There is a caveat, however. Hurricane 16g is 7% stiffer than 17g, and Advantage 15L is 7.8% stiffer than 17g. Some of this stiffness will be mitigated by the O-Port design, but I think the overall stiffness difference is greater compared to just raising the mains tension to 58 lb. Also, thicker strings tend to respond differently than thinner strings.

But, I’d say, try both solutions! Numbers don’t really matter to a player as long as the racket feels right and performs as expected.

[racketwiz]

Hi racketwiz,
I expected your answer that the shorter cross will be stiffer. Have you ever tried measuring the actual tension of the mains and the cross? Even if you tension both at 60 lbs, the mains will measure much higher than the cross. How would I explain this? Remember when you install the mains, the tension is 60 but as you tighten the cross, the mains tension will increase. This is because when you tighten the cross, the mains will be stretched. Straight then weave as you tighten the cross. Look at kevlar strings, when the cross is not tighten, its loose and tension will dramatically increase when you tighten the cross. Kevlar increase tension the most because it almost has no elasticity that is why it is recommended to lower 10%.

Now about tightening the cross more than the mains is done when you want cross string to be the dominant stringbed or feel. Remember hibrid strings gives you the average of both strings. Lowering the polys tension will not significantly affect stringbed stiffness since it is very stiff to start with. More elastic strings results in softer string bed. That is why we normally use multis for crosses. Polys normally results in higher stringbed stiffness.

Taking your analysis at face value, the mains being tighter than the crosses would make sense. But, we’re forgetting one important factor here: tension loss, caused by pulling tension (elongation), clamping off (relaxation) and friction.  By the time you begin installing the crosses, 60 lb on the mains is no longer 60 lb. Tension loss on the mains according to lab tests is around 22%. That means by the time you’re done installing the mains, the original 60 lb is down to 46.8 lb. But, and you’re right about this, installing the crosses will raise the tension of the mains as they are elongated once more by the cross weave. The amount of increase on the mains was measured at about 12%, so that brings the mains to 52.42 lb. For the crosses, considering the normal tension loss during stringing, the decrease was about 9.7%, making the cross tension 54.18 lb, about 1.76 lb tighter than the mains. In a poly/synthetic hybrid, the difference in tension will be slightly higher.  Poly mains will lose slightly more tension just because it's poly, and because it has a smooth and slippery surface, crosses will lose slightly less tension due to less friction during the crossweave.

Again, this result illustrates why Yonex recommends 5% less tension on their crosses, and why crosses determine power and comfort. It also shows why a vast majority of tour players who use poly hybrids string their crosses about 2-4 lb lower than the mains. In addition, the laws of physics guarantee that shorter strings will string up tighter than longer strings, atbe.

I would agree with you on tightening the crosses to make it the dominant “feel” and that more elastic strings result in a softer stringbed. I would tend to agree that lowering poly tension does not significantly affect stringbed stiffness, but that will depend upon how much tension the poly is being reduced. So, considering these, how is it possible to get a softer stringbed by lowering poly tension and increasing synthetic cross? If lowering poly tension does not significantly affect stringbed stiffness and increasing synthetic makes the string stiffer, don’t we get a stiffer stringbed? Maybe I’m missing something because I’m a little confused on this.

Kevlar? You mean you still have players using this stuff?    I haven’t touched Kevlar in God knows how long.

And btw, yes, I’ve tried measuring tensions on the mains and crosses. I used an electronic constant-pull stringing machine (Babolat Star 4) for stringing, Babolat RDC and Beers ERT to measure comparative stringbed stiffness, stringmeter and Honeywell Z-Beam load cell to measure tension, and precision ruler to measure frame deflection or distortion.  I’m interested to know how you did it and what equipment you used to do it. Perhaps my method was faulty.

[renald]

A simple string meter should tell you that the mains is a lot tighter than the cross. Considering you are using a constant pull machine, your mains should really be a lot tighter than the cross. Whats your location? I am surprised you have a babolat stringing machine and all the stuff you mentioned. You made a huge investment for these equipment.

The reson why some tour players string mains tighter because they like the stiffer feel of the poly. Stiffer stringbed means more feedback(vibration). If you like this kind of feel hard and harsh string tighter the poly. It is not true that the main should alwoys provide durability and spin while the cross is for feel. The reason why most players use poly for their mains is because they want to save on stringing cost. So this is for players wanting a softer feel but durable. Players who like stiffer stringbed should use pure poly not hibrid. Federer uses alu power for his cross, so mains need not be poly.

Yes I still have customers using kevlar, I already tried convincing them to shift to poly like agassi but they still preferred kevlar. Maybe its psychological. They said they dont get enough spin from polys because its slippery. We cant dictate, we can only suggest. Even if you use the same string and tension on his racket but the color is different some customers will think that the performance is different. Like tennis balls, they like different numbers.

re higher tension, higher tension will drop faster than a lower tension. So if the problem is rapid drop in tension, increasing tension will increase the problem. Thats physics, the harder you pull the more stretch will take place. Just ask around, which players complain of rapid tension loss. Player with high or low tension. The more you stress the string, the faster it will deteriorate. Look at Sampras with 75 lbs, he has to have his racket strung just before the match. His string just cant maintain the ultra high tension

[racketwiz]

Ah, yes, the stringmeter.  After over 10 years of using it, I’m still not convinced that it gives a pin-point accurate tension reading. When I first got it in the late 90’s, it was new in the market and I had a lot of technical questions about the device. I was able to contact the inventor, Darryl Manson, for some answers. He said that this device is intended to measure and monitor tension loss over a period of time. As far as measuring actual string tension is concerned, he indicated that it does give, in his own words, “ a very close approximation” of what the tension actually is. He instructed that tension readings be taken midpoint on the center mains. This led me to believe that the spring on the device is calibrated for the longest strings on the racket, the center mains (I average the readings on the two center mains). Taking readings on the crosses gives a false result. I proved this by using the Honeywell Z-Beam load cell. Nevertheless, I think it’s a great device, and for an inexpensive, portable and lightweight device, it does what it’s supposed to do – and that is, to quantify tension loss over a period of time. These days, however, when I’m out and about, I prefer using the portable version of the Beers ERT which measures stiffness over the entire stringbed. Rather than rely on a spring-loaded mechanism, this electronic device uses harmonic frequencies to calculate stringbed stiffness.  It might be interesting to note that before stringing machines were available, stringers determined the correct tension by monitoring harmonic frequencies using an oscilloscope.  The not-so-portable Babolat RDC uses pressure to deflect the stringbed and measure its stiffness.

“Main strings contribute durability and spin, while cross strings contribute power and comfort.”

That statement comes from the people at Babolat.  After manufacturing strings for 130+ years, I think they would know a little bit about how strings work, so I’ll take their word for it. Almost 100% of string breakage on non-hybrid stringjobs happens on the mains. If the cross breaks first, it’s due to shear. If one wants a more durability, guess where the bulletproof poly goes – yep, on the mains.
 
Interesting you brought up Sampras because he uses Babolat VS natural gut strings. What’s interesting is that while synthetics get increasingly stiff at higher tensions, natural gut maintains its inherent elasticity and resilience at tensions above 50 lb.  Players of Sampras’ caliber demand and require maximum control, hence the need for a stiffer stringbed. As it turns out, 75 lb (+/- 3 lb depending upon court conditions) was the magic number. This was the same case with Bjorn Borg, whose wood sticks were strung at around 80 lb by Bergelin, also with Babolat VS gut.  Nothing beats natural gut in holding tension, so I don’t think this was the issue with Sampras even with a tension of 75 lb.  Gut maintains its optimal performance up to the time it breaks, and it’s a quality that no synthetic has been able to match up to this day and probably never will.
 
I don’t disagree when you say that higher tensions have faster tension loss. But this is only true during stringing and within the first two hours of hitting. It’s quite a different story after that. The stringbed achieves equilibrium and what becomes relevant then is the rate of tension loss, not the amount of tension loss. The rate of tension loss remains constant until the strings go dead if it doesn't break first.

The Sampras situation explains why Luxilon-type strings are popular in the pro tour these days. Unlike the days when tour players had to jack up the tension to get maximum control, with these poly strings, they don’t have to. One can achieve a stiffer stringbed at relatively lower tensions.

To players out there, particularly poly users, who are concerned about tension loss, I would recommend having your strings pre-stretched.  Pre-stretching strings is the universally-accepted method of mitigating or minimizing tension loss. Has anybody tried this?

[rock_it_man]

To players out there, particularly poly users, who are concerned about tension loss, I would recommend having your strings pre-stretched.  Pre-stretching strings is the universally-accepted method of mitigating or minimizing tension loss. Has anybody tried this?

- quote from racketwiz

this sounds interesting 'wiz, wouldlike to try but how ?

[renald]

That is true that gut is suppose to hold tension upto a few minutes before it breaks. But this is true if you tension under 65. Gut cannot maintain tension over 70. Look at the recommended tension range on the foil. That explains why sampras wants his racket done just before the match. Havent you heard that a strung racket even if unused will loose every minute. Usrsa conducted a test where they recorded stringbed stifness from the time it was strung and every hour after. And after a year the stringbed stiffness continued to drop even without any use.

Pre stretching is simply stretching the string before it is installed. This will remove coil memory and minimize tension loss.

I am surprised that you have to differet gudgets just to prove the tension of mains and crosses when a simple stringmeter should already tell you the difference. I agree that the other gadgets are more accurate than the old stringmeter but you dont need too much accuracy because the mains is much higher than the cross. Its like needing a pressure guage to compare tire pressure between two tires when the tire pressure of 1 is 15 while the other is 35. Simply kicking the tire would tell you.

“Main strings contribute durability and spin, while cross strings contribute power and comfort.” If this is true, everybody should be using hybrid. Different mains and crosses. Finding the right string depends on the players preference. Just like rackets, you simply cannot generalize what is best. Finding the right string is like trial and error but make sure your stringer has enough knowledge about different types of strings to lessen the trial.  Most players prefer softer feel but wants durability. That is why most use this configuration but not roger federer.

[renald]

Hi Racketwiz,
I am enjoying  this exchanges of ideas. I hope this would help the pto members understand more their equipment.

Whats your location? I sure would like to see your stuff and have discussions with you.

More power to pto

[ruud]

guys! i really love this discussion! thought i have to wipe my nose everytime because of
nose bleed!

can we put a generally accepted fact file on strings and tension for the benefit of the whole PTO group? we can even categorize it by discussion point.

what do you think?  im going to get a stringjob today, i will again use babolat hurricane pro on my mains at 58? and gamma 15L at 55 on my cross? i will also check their equipment as what they are using.

did i get it right? kudos to you guys!

[racketwiz]

To players out there, particularly poly users, who are concerned about tension loss, I would recommend having your strings pre-stretched.  Pre-stretching strings is the universally-accepted method of mitigating or minimizing tension loss. Has anybody tried this?

- quote from racketwiz

this sounds interesting 'wiz, wouldlike to try but how ?

Your stringer should know how, but basically you secure one end of the string and pull on the other end.

Basic guideline is pull the string at a tension of 45 lb and hold for 45 sec. The first few times I tried it, I used a tension calibrator to let me know I'm at 45 lb. As I got used to it, I could pretty much "feel" the stretch so the tension calibrator was no longer necessary.

Perhaps renald has another pre-stretching technique.

[racketwiz]

Hi Racketwiz,
I am enjoying  this exchanges of ideas. I hope this would help the pto members understand more their equipment.

Whats your location? I sure would like to see your stuff and have discussions with you.

More power to pto

It is enjoyable (and informative) to have exchanges like this. We could all learn from each other.

I'm aware of those "maximum recommended tension" on string sets. Babolat, in particular, is notorious for this. The last time I asked the Babolat people about this, their response was that these "recommendations" are based on what they believe is the optimal performance envelope for the average majority of consumers. I'll try to get a hold of Bob Patterson tomorrow to see what his take is on this issue. But, I wonder how relevant this issue is to the average player. Most players don't use natural gut, and even if they do, you won't see a 70 lb tension anyway, even with synthetic. Furthermore, the maximum tension range for most rackets these days don't go beyond 70 lb.

As far as using other gadgets to test tension, I was looking for accuracy. The stringmeter is intended to give relative tension, not actual tension. One thing about the stringmeter I forgot to mention earlier is that the device is calibrated for nylon-based synthetic strings. So, even with ordinary stringbed measurements, I barely use the stringmeter anymore. I'm based in the US, btw.

[racketwiz]

guys! i really love this discussion! thought i have to wipe my nose everytime because of
nose bleed!

can we put a generally accepted fact file on strings and tension for the benefit of the whole PTO group? we can even categorize it by discussion point.

what do you think?  im going to get a stringjob today, i will again use babolat hurricane pro on my mains at 58? and gamma 15L at 55 on my cross? i will also check their equipment as what they are using.

did i get it right? kudos to you guys!

If you plan on using the pro hurricane 17g at 58, keep your original gamma 17g at 55 lb.  The other option was to keep your tension at 55 lb but use the thicker strings that renald suggested.

One thing I forgot to mention in the areas of concern was "double pulling".  This happens when a lazy stringer pulls tension on two strings. This results in considerable tension loss, and inconsistent and unpredictable stringbed.

Does anyone still use chubby 15L strings?  I would recommend a 16g instead of a 15L. As far as durability and tension loss is concerned, I think the difference is very small and inconsequential. As far as feel and performance is concerned, 16g is much better.

Maybe sticking some cotton balls in your nostrils will help with the nose bleeds 

[altodds]

Wow, I love this discussion!!!
very informative, it helps us players understand more about our strings.

Stringing my own rackets and my students for more than 15 yrs.
Got one experience, I strung my 2 rackets the same day, well the same models, the first around 10am, 55 lbs, after that I rested and hit some more or less 10 bottles of beer, and stringed the other one, medyo groggy na.
The next day I tried the the first racket (sober stringing), It feels good, then after 30 or 40 mins hitting against my junior player, I broke the string, and began using the second one(with loads of beer stringing), well, I think the second one is more softer feel and great control, but it has the same tension as the first, the diffrence is the loads of beer perhaps.
So the bottom line is drink beer while stringing!!! just kidding 

[racketwiz]

Or maybe the bottom line is play tennis with a hangover  hehehe

[altodds]

Or maybe the bottom line is play tennis with a hangover  hehehe

Yeah I think you're right 
But I'll try to string a racket with a hangover, and test it, or No beer first at the mains and lots of beer on the crosses, I want to try everything which suits my playing style 

[renald]

I believe the problem was rapid tension loss, not feel or performance. So a thicker string should do the job. Let us not confuse playabilty with the issue. I agree that thinner string gives you better(softer) feel in general assuming the same model of string. But how would we explain why players use polyester strings? A thick synthetic will still be softer compared to a thinner poly, so why still use poly. So softer feel is not for everybody. Sometime we have to sacrifice something to get something. So in the US where labor is expensive, they would use poly even if the feel is stiff. But I know players who prefer this feel and use pure poly for their string. A decade ago, kevlar was popular in the us beacuse of its durability not for anything else unlike poly. Poly is as durable but with good performance. So players needing durability but wants a softer feel would use hybrid(poly mains/syn cross). Although this will still be stiffer than pure syn but a lot durable, maybe 3x durable.

There is no point of using 17 for your cross. This will break faster and will not hold the tension well. A thinner string will get thinner faster thus loose tension faster. Use syn 17 if you want softer feel. The thick syn will still break first even if you pair it with 17 poly. In short, if you want softer feel, a pure syn 16 will play softer than a poly hybrid 17. 

[racketwiz]

The fact is, tension loss, whether rapid or gradual, affects feel, performance or playability.  So, in the context of tension loss, these things have to be considered.  A stringbed, like any structure under stress, is constantly seeking equilibrium.  A change in one string characteristic (in this case, tension loss), results in the directly or inversely proportional change of another.

So, does a thicker string hold tension better? In a general sense, atbe, I would immediately say “yes”. But, in order to make comparisons between specific strings, it is necessary to know what each string’s specific characteristics are.  So let’s deal with specifics: if we do an apples-to-apples comparison of ruud’s Gamma Synthetic 17 and Gamma Advantage 15L, we will find that the 17g has a rated tension loss of 11.51 lb while the 15L has a rated tension loss of  9.90 lb. So, yes, the thicker 15L holds tension better.

But wait: let’s bring in the Gamma Synthetic 16g I suggested. The 16g has a rated tension loss of 9.86 lb, which is 0.04 lb better than but practically identical to the 15L. How can this be?!?  This basically illustrates that string materials, technology, construction, production methods, etc, determines the string’s ultimate characteristics. For instance, nylon 6 and nylon 66, although physically and visually identical, are different on a molecular level. Thus, they exhibit different performance characteristics.

However, it’s not enough to stop at this comparison.  The player is the most important variable in this equation. ruud’s “feel” for his preferred strings must be taken into account. Thus, another string characteristic that affects his “feel” has to be introduced: string stiffness.

We will find that the Gamma Synthetic 17g has a rated stiffness of 209 lb/in, the 15L is 227 and the 16g is 218. So, in the interest of the player, my goal is to keep changes within a reasonable minimum so as not to drastically alter the player’s feel, and consequently, his stroke performance. That is the basis for the 16g suggestion.

When it comes to equipment customization, it is important to introduce change one variable at a time. When multiple changes are done at the same time, it is difficult if not impossible to determine which variable, or combination of variables, is causing the desirable or undesirable effect.

[racketwiz]

Poly seems to be a hot topic these days, so what exactly is the noise all about?

“Poly” refers to either basic polyester, composite polyester, or polyether strings. Basic polyester (usually yellow-orange in color) is cheap because it’s low-tech: simple extrusion of a single material. Co-polyester (like Babolat Pro Hurricane) and polyether (like Luxilon Big Banger) costs a bit more because there’s more material and technology involved.

Tour players use poly because as I mentioned in my earlier post, players of this caliber demand maximum control. Unlike other strings, poly enables them to achieve a stiffer stringbed at relatively lower tensions. Durability, or price for that matter, is not a concern for these players. In fact, better tour players and those who are sponsored typically have their polys re-strung after every 16 hours of play or two days, whichever comes first. When in a tournament, their polys are re-strung after the match, whether or not the racket has been used. Polyethers and co-polyesters have supplanted polyesters in recent years.

The longer the strings stay on your racket, the less money one has to spend on re-stringing. Well, at least, that’s the idea. It’s typical for those on a tight budget to opt for inexpensive polyesters. Those with a more flexible budget will typically opt for co-polyesters or polyethers.  Bottom line is, any player at any skill level with budget constraints will always be willing to sacrifice playability for durability. In this case, poly is a logical choice.

Based on my experience, durability is the only single benefit that the average player can derive from polys, imo. If a player does not have stroke precision, hit consistently hard or maintain a consistently fast swing speed, there is nothing to gain performance-wise from using poly. Players whose priority is playability will not find poly very forgiving, even in a hybrid setup. More often than not, these players gravitate toward hi-performance monofilaments (like Gamma TNT2) or multifilaments (like Tecnifibre), and for those who can afford it, natural gut. Whatever playability poly has disappears in two weeks, which is about the time poly goes dead. Players who put a premium on playability will not play with dead strings if their budget allows it. In this case, it wouldn’t make sense to sacrifice playability (comfort and feel, as well) by using poly only to have it cut and re-strung after 2 weeks because it’s gone dead.

In a hybrid stringjob, 17ga poly mains are installed to get some measure of playability. A synthetic 17ga cross is installed for the same reason. If a player wants a little more durability from his crosses without sacrificing too much playability, a 16ga is installed. Again, if budget is not a concern, the choice of using 16ga or 17ga crosses is relevant only to the player’s feel because by the time the synthetic crosses break, the poly mains have long been half past dead.

Why does Luxilon seem so popular? Because a lot of pros are using it, and the average joe hacker want what the pros are using without fully understanding why the pros are using it in the first place. The market industry retail data shows a different story, however. Of the top 5 strings sold in the US, 80% are synthetics. This would lead me to believe that a large majority of US players are still not convinced that poly serves up a distinct advantage on their games, and that durability is not a major concern.

[racketwiz]

Or maybe the bottom line is play tennis with a hangover  hehehe

Yeah I think you're right 
But I'll try to string a racket with a hangover, and test it, or No beer first at the mains and lots of beer on the crosses, I want to try everything which suits my playing style 

Lifting beer bottles is always a good exercise for increasing power in your strokes.

[renald]

The comparison you are making is half true. Polyester will loose tension faster compared to syn is only true if you dont use the racket. For tour players with excessive topsin, they will break the syn within 5 hours. While poly would easily last more than 10 hours. In short there will be a rapid decline in tension for syn compared to poly because syn would easily develop canals on the main string. This is the reason why tour players use poly. For tour players they want their string to maintain tension longer while playing and this is not possible with syn. Syn will not only loose tension it might even break.

Another proof, natural gut is suppose to maintain tension the best and have the best feel. For top players these are free so money is not an object. Why would nadal or rodick use poly if natural is the best. They are babolat sponsored players, makers of the finest natural gut. So your opinion that strings rated for playability is best for everyone is not true. Babolat  VS + natural gut 17 is rated as highest playability by USRSA for several years so everybody including nadal and rodick should use it. This proves that there is no best string or best racket for everybody.

About changing one variable at a time is good if you want to know the cause of the change. Pang Laboratory yan. The player would like to get the best string for him with the least possible cost. I am sure my suggested combination will maintain tension better than your 17/16 combination, also cheaper. I think the ruud will be the best judge.

Gamma TNT is not mono filament its singhle warp. Only poly generaly is monofilament. Also check stiffness not just the tension loss. The advatage 15L, 227 stiffness with 9.90 tension loss compared to your syn 16, 218 stiffness with 9.86 tension loss. In percentage 4.36% compared to your 4.52% tesion loss.

About the average american joe, they dont even know what string they are using. Filipinos are more particular about their strings and rackets. Poly is more difficult to install. This is why stringers shy away from poly.

About prestretching, 45 lbs for 45 seconds, where did you get this idea? When you pre stretch, it should be higher by 10 or 20% compared to the actual tension. If you only pull 45 lbs, this is not enough, the string is not properly prestreched. Its is also proven that the longer you pull, the string will stretch more thus minimizing future tension loss. Just like a constant pull machine, it will adjust or continue to pull as long as the string is stretching.

[racketwiz]

Polys on the pro tour
For a heavy spinner, gut or synthetic strings will not last long simply because it’s not as durable as poly. This has always been the case for topspinning European claycourters. Popular among this type of player was basic polyester (Kirschbaum-type). But, polyester’s popularity was limited to claycourters and even during polyester’s heyday, natural gut remained the string of choice on the tour. Beginning in 2002, players started paying some attention to polyether (Luxilon) which was a poly with less of polyester’s harshness and tension loss. As soon as polyether took off, others began to formulate next-generation polyesters called co-polyesters (Thermaxe, Pro Hurricane) that also reduced harshness and tension loss, although Luxilon is still by far the leader in this category. So when we talk about poly’s popularity these days, we are talking about polyether (Luxilon) and co-polyester. These polys are popular on tour because, and I’ll say it again, it enables players to achieve a stiffer stringbed at relatively lower tensions compared to gut or synthetics.  This means a player can swing harder to put more spin or hit harder to drive the ball while maintaining control, and minimizing, if not eliminating the likelihood of string breakage during a crucial point. This is what tour players, tour stringers and tennis commentators are saying, and a few articles have been written about it. So, this is the reality of polys on the pro tour.  Players who haven’t switched to polys still prefer natural gut and those who use hybrids still use natural gut for the other half.  Poly-based strings lose tension faster than synthetics. Players say it, stringers say it, Kirschbaum and Luxilon acknowledges it and lab tests confirm it. This fact can’t be any more definitive than that. Durability is mentioned only in the context of string breakage during play, which is common with high-strung gut and synthetics. Tension loss is not an issue since these pros re-string very frequently.

Playability, string construction, string stiffness, customization
When you stated that my opinion is that strings rated for playability is best for everyone, you were mistaken. What I said was players who prioritize playability will look for hi-performance synthetics or gut instead of poly.  Poly is a true monofilament, but synthetics began as true monofilaments, too.  As the term would suggest, monofilaments have a one (“mono”) solid core (“filament”).  So aside from a poly monofilament, you can have a single-wrap monofilament (TNT, Duraflex) or double-wrap monofilament (Babolat Magic Force).  I obviously considered string stiffness in ruud’s case, but as I said, “ in the interest of the player, my goal is to keep changes within a reasonable minimum so as not to drastically alter the player’s feel, and consequently, his stroke performance.”  I guess our understanding and approach to racket customization are very different. For me, customization is not an instant solution; it is a process. Even stringers who’s had some experience on the pro circuit will agree.

Consider this scenario: a player gives you a KBlade 98 originally strung with NXT 17ga at 57 lb. The player says he wants more power from his strings, a little more overall weight and more headlight balance on his racket, but he wants to keep the swingweight similar. What happens if you did all the changes at the same time and the player says his racket doesn’t feel right. How do you figure out what’s wrong? Is it the strings? Is it the tension? Is it the extra weight or the location of the extra weight? Is the head light balance too head heavy? What about swingweight? If you changed one variable at a time, you can immediately pinpoint what the problem is. This is not a laboratory scenario. This is a common customization scenario.

Pre-stretching
There is no set standard for pre-stretching settings.  Manual pre-stretching normally do not exceed 45 lb and 45 sec, with durations depending upon the stringers pre-stretch experience with particular strings.  This has been a common practice for decades. The 10-20% settings you mentioned is in reference to the “pre-stretch” function in electronic CP machines. Technically, pre-stretch done by the machine is not a pre-stretch but rather an over-tension. You don't need a lot of tension to take up string slack and align it's molecules. Either type of pre-stretch works, but too much pre-stretch can lead to stiffer stringbeds. This is why I prefer the manual method, where I can "feel" and control the pre-stretch before the string is installed.

[renald]

Isn't it what we want to maitain a higher stringbed stiffness for ruud. If i remember correctly, ruud was complaining how he cant control his shots because of rapid tension loss. So we recommended strings and techniques to help him. Anyway its upto to players to try our different philosophies, they will be the best judge.

Poly loosing tension faster is history. New polys like signum poly plasma claims to maintain tension better than most syn. Ex. 1st racket-poly strung at 55lbs and 2nd racket-multi at 60 lbs. After stringing, they will approximately have the same stringbed stiffness. After 5 hours of rally, which racket will maitain better its stringbed stiffness? The second one might not only be loose it might even be broken. Remember, any string nearing its breaking point will loose its tension, even natural gut.

[racketwiz]

Whether our views are different or same, I think we have a common goal, and that is, to help our fellow players get the best out of their equipment. It is our job to interpret basic technical facts in the context of each individual player. After all, it's the individual player that matters.

I'm still skeptical about poly manufacturers claiming "excellent tension holding" etc. Polys, whatever their composites or additives are, will always exhibit poly atrributes. I received several Signum Pro samples some time ago and they're no better at holding tension. Rated tension loss varies from 14 lb to 25 lb depending on model, and from actual use, these numbers seem true.

I'm with Tommy Haas when it comes to polys: nice string, but it just doesn't work for me.

[Nadale]

Whether our views are different or same, I think we have a common goal, and that is, to help our fellow players get the best out of their equipment. It is our job to interpret basic technical facts in the context of each individual player. After all, it's the individual player that matters.

I'm still skeptical about poly manufacturers claiming "excellent tension holding" etc. Polys, whatever their composites or additives are, will always exhibit poly atrributes. I received several Signum Pro samples some time ago and they're no better at holding tension. Rated tension loss varies from 14 lb to 25 lb depending on model, and from actual use, these numbers seem true.

I'm with Tommy Haas when it comes to polys: nice string, but it just doesn't work for me.

Very informative discussion!!!

Regarding Tommy Haas, is it true that his tension is about 70 to 75lbs?

[racketwiz]

Very informative discussion!!!

Regarding Tommy Haas, is it true that his tension is about 70 to 75lbs?

Sounds about right. He strings with natural gut. With a history of shoulder problems, he says he can’t take poly’s harshness.

Interesting to note that prior to 2002, Liam Nolan (head stringer at Wimbledon) noted that about 30% of Europeans using Kirschbaum-type polyesters were out of action due to arm problems that were attributed to these strings. New generation polyethers and co-polyesters are formulated to be “softer” at least to an extent that is acceptable to tour players, hence the current popularity.

Still, unless the player:
-has good stroke mechanics
-has the skill to hit consistently hard properly (“properly” being the key word here)
-is looking to harness or control the power or racket speed he is capable of generating
-has no history of arm problems
-is physically fit to handle the shock polys impart on the arm
I cannot, in good conscience, recommend polys.

Polys will not give a player a harder shot or a heavily-spun ball, which is a common misconception about these strings. It does give the player a better potential of hitting a harder shot and creating loads of spin, but only if the player has the skills to match.

['codeyoung']

Very informative discussion!!!

Regarding Tommy Haas, is it true that his tension is about 70 to 75lbs?

Sounds about right. He strings with natural gut. With a history of shoulder problems, he says he can’t take poly’s harshness.

Interesting to note that prior to 2002, Liam Nolan (head stringer at Wimbledon) noted that about 30% of Europeans using Kirschbaum-type polyesters were out of action due to arm problems that were attributed to these strings. New generation polyethers and co-polyesters are formulated to be “softer” at least to an extent that is acceptable to tour players, hence the current popularity.

Still, unless the player:
-has good stroke mechanics
-has the skill to hit consistently hard properly (“properly” being the key word here)
-is looking to harness or control the power or racket speed he is capable of generating
-has no history of arm problems
-is physically fit to handle the shock polys impart on the arm
I cannot, in good conscience, recommend polys.

Polys will not give a player a harder shot or a heavily-spun ball, which is a common misconception about these strings. It does give the player a better potential of hitting a harder shot and creating loads of spin, but only if the player has the skills to match.

very good information. makes me understand more why certain strings have different effects on my arm/shoulder.

[renald]

Hi Rick Santamaria.
I agree with you that polys results in stiffer harsher feel. As I have said players have different preference just like in rackets. Here, generally people use poly not because they like the feel but because it is very durable. I have cutomers who live 100 to 200 kms away that they cannot afford to visit me often, thats why they have to settle with poly hybrids. I also have customers who likes the stiff feel that they use pure polys like enduropro17, redcode, poly plasma etc. I also have customers with arm problems, I give natural gut or multis. Product knowledge will definetely help our players.

[racketwiz]

Hi Rick Santamaria.
I agree with you that polys results in stiffer harsher feel. As I have said players have different preference just like in rackets. Here, generally people use poly not because they like the feel but because it is very durable. I have cutomers who live 100 to 200 kms away that they cannot afford to visit me often, thats why they have to settle with poly hybrids. I also have customers who likes the stiff feel that they use pure polys like enduropro17, redcode, poly plasma etc. I also have customers with arm problems, I give natural gut or multis. Product knowledge will definetely help our players.

Who is Rick Santamaria? I think you mean Jeff Ignacio, right? 

Haven't actually met this Rick guy, but I heard he's a pretty nice dude

[renald]

Hi Jeff,
I thought you were rick since his name was very filipino and you said you have several tips in chapter 4. BTW i went over chapter 4 and i believe i have finished half and didnt see any tips under your name. What tips did you contribute?

[racketwiz]

Hi Jeff,
I thought you were rick since his name was very filipino and you said you have several tips in chapter 4. BTW i went over chapter 4 and i believe i have finished half and didnt see any tips under your name. What tips did you contribute?

renald, I'm kidding amigo. Sorry you had to go thru the entire chapter 4. You got me, nice catch. I knew you were going to figure it out.